SHOW NOTE
 
"Have you ever met someone who became a core memory just from first encounter? Characters can become core memories and this epsiode some of the secrets to that!
 
 
Recap
The episode starts with a reflection  back into the fascinating friendship between BoJack Horseman creators Raphael Bob-Waksberg and Lisa Hanawalt, touching on how their high school bond evolved into one of television's most groundbreaking collaborations—where dark humor meets whimsical art in perfect harmony. This isn't just a recap; it's the foundation for understanding why BoJack became a cultural phenomenon.
 
INTRO
This episode marks the beginning of our character design saga, where we unravel the secrets behind creating unforgettable characters. Using BoJack Horseman as our masterclass, we'll explore how visual design, narrative depth, and psychological realism combine to create characters that haunt you long after the credits roll. From memory triggers to the "show-don't-tell" technique, prepare to discover why these characters feel more real than most people you know.
 
ICEBREAKER HOOK
Did you know humans process 74 gigabytes of data daily—equivalent to watching 16 movies—yet remember almost none of it? Discover the shocking psychology behind what makes memories stick and how it directly connects to creating unforgettable characters. Through fascinating research and real conversations with friends about first impressions, we reveal the hidden patterns that determine who we remember and why. Spoiler: It says more about YOU than the people you're judging!
 
PART A - MEMORY OF FIRST IMPRESSION & CORE MEMORIES
Betty and Rita dive into the psychology of first encounters with a hilarious exploration of what people notice when meeting someone new. From outfit obsessions to head shapes (yes, really!), discover why some people become core memories while others fade away. Featuring wild stories about childhood nightmares, hide-and-seek legends, plus: Why do Nigerian parents name their kids some of the most peculiar names? The mystery continues...
 
Key Revelation: Characters are like souvenirs from an amusement park—they're what you take home from the story experience. Learn how many authors have managed to enrich their pockets by creating fictional characters that fans go crazy for while burning their wallets.... It's all in the pyschology!
 
 
PART B - MEMORY OF FIRST APPEARANCE - THE PHYSICAL
Uncover the genius behind Lisa Hanawalt's irreplaceable art style and why no other artist could capture BoJack's tone. Discover the deliberate decision to make characters anthropomorphic—not just for laughs, but as a "sneak attack" for delivering devastating emotional truths. Discover the real reason why the show has animals and why a horse was was chosen as the main protagonist to serve hardcore truths about the show's main message of depression, anxiety and existential crisis.
 
Mind-Blowing Insight: The human characters in BoJack's world start to feel OUT OF PLACE—not the animal-people. Find out why this reversal is storytelling genius and how it forces viewers to project themselves onto a horse.
 
 
 
PART C - ESTABLISHING MEMORY - NAMING YOUR CHARACTER & CHOOSING THEIR CAREER
Names Have Power: Ever met someone named "Thank God" or "Testimony"? Discover why Nigerian naming traditions reveal a universal truth: names create memories. Betty and Rita share hilarious stories some of the most unique names they've ever heard, the creepy reality of overused names and how current generation has somehow lost the art of introducing themselves through names maing the whole concept feel obselete in the informal world! There's also the unexpected reason why the name "BoJack Horseman" is brilliantly simple and how Rafael Bob-Waksberg's "lazy naming" became iconic.
 
Career as Destiny: Why did BoJack become an actor instead of a racehorse? Uncover the dark alternative pitch that almost happened and why the entertainment industry angle allowed the show to explore stardom, addiction, and existential crisis in ways a sports would have proved more challenging. Plus: Betty and Rita reveal their own chaotic career origin stories—from NASA dreams to architectural accidents, with both believing that architecture is a field for only those who are CHOSEN to it, not just called!
 
 
PART D - THE PSYCHOLOGY OF FIRST ENCOUNTER WITH CHARACTERS
Betty shares the exact moment she discovered BoJack Horseman during the darkest year of her life—through a single image of two characters under a blanket fort made of beer cans. The caption? "Here's the secret to being happy: just pretend that you are, and eventually you'll forget that you're pretending." Discover why this fake-it-till-you-make-it philosophy perfectly captures BoJack's essence.
The Masterclass Introduction: Witness how BoJack's first scene—a disastrous interview where he admits to parking in a disabled spot while drunk—establishes EVERYTHING you need to know about his character in under two minutes. Learn the textbook formula for introducing characters in "classic moments" and why showing beats telling every single time.
 
The Evolution of a Character: Track BoJack's visual transformation from innocent sailor-outfit kid to pimply teenager to lavish showbiz star to disheveled pseudo-celebrity to gray-haired acceptance. Each appearance marks a character arc—just like the different eras of YOUR life story.
 
 
FINAL TAKEAWAY
Master the art of creating memorable characters through:
Distinct physical features tied to their story
Names that stick and reflect identity
Careers that serve the narrative themes
Classic introductions that show, don't tell
As K.M. Weiland says: "If you can master the art of character introduction, you've already licked through a quarter of the battle."
 
 
Next Episode Preview: The character design saga continues! We're diving deeper into personality construction, character arcs, and the secrets behind making audiences fall in love with flawed protagonists.
 
 
 
Follow @pagespodcasthq on all platforms for behind-the-scenes content, character breakdowns, and more storytelling secrets

SHOW NOTE
 
Here's a brilliant question: "How does a cartoon horse become the face of human trauma?"
 
 Content Warning! 
This episode contains discussions of childhood trauma, abuse, addiction, and other mature themes. Listener discretion is advised.
 
Recap
In our last episode, we cracked the code on making characters unforgettable—unique looks, career-driven identities, and killer introductions by studying the blueprint of bojack's character desgin on a superficially apparent level.
 
INTRO
Today, we're going deeper to ask the harder question: how does a two-dimensional anthropomorphic cartoon become a cultural icon for human trauma? This is where we move from characters people remember to characters people feel. Welcome to Part Two of the Character Design Saga, where we explore what separates a memorable character from a truly rounded one. Spoiler alert: it's messy, uncomfortable, and absolutely brilliant.
 
PART A - Being Born BoJack Horseman
What does it mean to be born BoJack Horseman? Imagine opening your eyes for the first time and learning that crying makes your mother angry—that your very existence is blamed for her misery. Meet Beatrice, the ice-cold heiress who teaches you to hate yourself, and Butterscotch, the failed novelist father who makes you believe you're the reason he can't finish his masterpiece. At six years old, you're already the scapegoat for every parental fight, learning that survival means staying quiet and swallowing your pain.
Your only light in this darkness? Secretariat, a TV racehorse who becomes the father figure you desperately need. At nine, you write him a letter asking the question that will haunt you forever: "How do you not be sad?" His answer becomes your life philosophy: "Keep running forward. Don't ever look behind you." It sounds like solid advice—until Secretariat jumps off a bridge, proving that even he couldn't outrun his demons.
Fast forward to your fifties. You've escaped to LA, achieved Hollywood fame, and tried to fill the void with sex, alcohol, and validation. Nothing works. When you finally land your dream role playing Secretariat in a biopic, you can't cry on camera—horsemen don't cry, remember? Then your mother calls with words that shatter you completely: "You were born broken, and that's your birthright. You're BoJack Horseman, and there is no cure for that." Something inside you breaks irreparably, and for the first time, the tears flow.
This is BoJack Horseman: a character so broken he becomes the poster child for childhood trauma, yet somehow still has a heart that wants to change. This is what it means to be truly complex.
 
PART B - Introduction to the Rounded Character
When asked to name the simplest character in fiction, the answer is obvious: Luffy from One Piece. His mindset is beautifully straightforward—if Luffy met BoJack, he'd slap him on the back and say, "I don't care about your trauma. What you did was wrong. Don't hurt my friends." Luffy knows what's good and pursues it without debate. That's what makes him simple.
But here's the thing: simple doesn't mean shallow. In literature, characters fall into categories—round or flat, dynamic or static. Round characters are complex and multifaceted with depth and range. Flat characters are one-dimensional, often existing for a single purpose. Dynamic characters change throughout the story, while static characters remain essentially the same.
Luffy is static (his core never changes) but rounded (we see his anger, joy, fear, and fierce loyalty). Saitama from One Punch Man is flat and static, existing primarily for comedy. High school bullies who suddenly turn good are flat but dynamic—they change without much depth. Dumbledore is rounded but static—complex backstory, but fundamentally unchanged. And then there's BoJack: rounded AND dynamic, the gold standard that most writers chase.
For a character to be truly rounded, they need five key attributes: Complexity, Depth, Development, Transformation, and Relatability. In this episode, we're diving deep into the first element—Complexity—and exploring what makes BoJack one of the most complex characters ever written.
 
PART C - Complexity as a Tool in Crafting Rounded Characters - The BJ Case Study
Here's where BoJack gets fascinating. In flashbacks, we see a cheerful sitcom star from the '80s—friendly, likable, the kind of person you'd want to spend time with. Cut to present day, and we meet a gloomy, washed-up celebrity who can't stand himself. These are the same person. The horse hates the reality of himself, so he buries himself in the fictional version he prefers.
There's this moment in the first episode where BoJack is rewatching his old show, laughing at a joke: "Neigh way, Jose!" He's proud because "neigh" means no, but it's also what horses say. It's one of the few times he doesn't hate being a horse. This is the first clue to BoJack's complexity—he's a living paradox. He's a horse who hates horses, including himself. Yet occasionally, he embraces his horse identity just enough to remind us how conflicted he truly is.
Despite being a horse, BoJack's experiences are so deeply human that you forget what he looks like. He becomes a blank canvas for human trauma, a projection of your own struggles. When his mother tells him as a child, "You ruined me by being born," that's not a horse problem—that's a human wound. This is complexity at its finest: physical appearance contradicting behavioral reality.
The Takeaway: Want to create complexity? Make your character's physical attributes contradict their behavior. A beautiful woman with an ugly personality. A shy fox who's secretly cunning. A mermaid who wants to be human. A god who doesn't know he's a god. The contrast is addictive—our brains love that tension.
The Moral Gray Zone
BoJack isn't good. But after watching his entire story, you can't simply call him bad either. He's flawed, problematic, the kind of person you'd avoid on his worst days—but the show never presents him as evil. This is moral complexity at its peak, the formula for anti-villains: bad guys who do terrible things, yet you can't quite hate them because you see glimpses of goodness.
Take the Sarah Lynn tragedy. She's a former child star spiraling into addiction, and BoJack tries to help by letting her crash at his place. But BoJack has addiction problems too. How can someone who doesn't understand sobriety help someone who's not sober? He becomes an unconscious enabler, eventually initiating a bender that leads to her death. He thought he was helping. He didn't want her to die. But his lack of self-awareness made him a perpetrator.
Before you label him evil, the show asks: Could BoJack be you? Have you ever invited a friend into a harmful activity because you needed a partner in your vice? Have you ever felt guilt but twisted the narrative to make yourself the victim, saying "I didn't force you" while forgetting that they looked up to you, trusted you, wanted to be there for you?
Then there's the Penny situation—the most controversial episode in the series. BoJack befriends his longtime crush's seventeen-year-old daughter during a two-month stay. He takes her to prom. She develops feelings. He refuses multiple times. But he leaves his door open. She sneaks in. They're caught in a compromising position. Later, BoJack admits he's not sure he would've stopped if they weren't caught.
People debate this endlessly: Is he entirely to blame? He's the adult. He should've stood his ground. But she insisted, argued she was legally an adult, begged him. Why did he leave his door open? The show doesn't give you an easy answer. It gives you complexity—the kind that makes you uncomfortable because it forces you to examine your own capacity for harm.
In both cases—Sarah Lynn and Penny—BoJack feels guilt and shame. But what's missing is remorse. And that's where the show gets really interesting.
Inside the Mind of a "Stupid Piece of Shit"
Internal conflict is how writers show us what characters are thinking, and BoJack Horseman has entire episodes dedicated to BoJack's internal monologue. Season four, episode six—"Stupid Piece of Shit"—is a masterclass. We spend a day inside BoJack's head as he wakes up calling himself a stupid piece of shit, continues his day insulting himself, harms people around him, then berates himself for hurting others, which causes him to harm more people, which makes him insult himself more. It's a vicious cycle: hurt people hurt people.
He believes he can't change, so he accepts his self-destructive ways, using them as an excuse not to own up to the pain he causes others. It detaches him from accountability. You, as the viewer, are privy to these dark thoughts—the kind we all have during our worst moments when we think, "God, I'm such a terrible person." You relate to that spiral. You empathize with the difficulty of those negative thoughts.
But here's the genius: you understand him better, yet you still can't excuse him. You see where the hate is coming from, you understand the cycle, but you still recognize what a stupid piece of shit he is to others. This is the power of internal conflict in complex characters—it creates empathy without excusing behavior. You judge from a place of understanding rather than ignorance.
The Reality of Human Consequences
Here's where BoJack Horseman diverges from typical storytelling. In classic narratives, the character makes a final sacrifice, does one good deed, and boom—happily ever after, all sins forgiven. But that's not how BoJack works. At the end of the series, BoJack doesn't simply become a good person. He's given opportunities to do what's right, and sometimes he takes them. But the show never lets him—or us—forget the damage he's caused.
There's a woman he strangled on stage while high on meth. He wasn't in control, didn't mean to, and later tries to make amends. As the audience, you think, "At least he's trying. What else can he do?" But that woman now has PTSD. She's terrified of men getting close to her. She's an actress who has to do intimate scenes, but she can't without reliving the moment she thought she was going to die. This is her life now. This is her story. BoJack can change all he wants—she still has to live with what he did.
It's like parents who abuse their children for years, then ask for forgiveness when they're old and fragile. The parent might genuinely change, might be truly sorry, but that child still has to go to therapy. That child still carries the trauma long after the parent dies. The show doesn't give us closure because life doesn't give us closure. It gives us the uncomfortable truth: as long as we're alive, every day is a choice between doing good or doing bad. Sometimes those choices aren't even black and white.
The creators don't tell us if BoJack is redeemable. Some viewers think yes, some think no. The depth of context allows each person to reach their own conclusion. Is this a happily-ever-after or a work in progress? The answer is: it's inconclusive, just like real life.
 
Why This Matters
In essence, a complex character feels like a real person with a rich inner life and history that informs their actions. This complexity adds depth and nuance to the story, making characters compelling and memorable. BoJack Horseman doesn't give us easy answers about good and evil. Instead, it gives us streaks of gray, forcing us to sit with discomfort and examine our own moral frameworks.
That's the power of complexity in character design. It's not about making characters likable—it's about making them real. And sometimes, real is messy, uncomfortable, and impossible to categorize. That's what makes it unforgettable. 
 
OUTRO
Thanks for listening, Pagers. Next episode, we're diving into character depth—the second ingredient in creating rounded characters that resonate. We'll continue exploring BoJack Horseman and uncover how the show builds layers that teach us about our own lives.
Follow us @pagespodcast_HQ and subscribe on your favorite platform. For the full unedited experience, visit our website, leave a comment, and let us know what you think.
We'll see you on the next page. Bye!

SHOW NOTE
 
What’s the secret to making characters come alive? Why can’t we just leave a character to be superficial or flat? We explore this question in this episode.
 
Spoilers Warning! 
This episode contains major spoilers for BoJack Horseman. If you haven't watched the series yet, consider this your invitation to binge it first—then come back and join the conversation.
 
 
RECAP
The journey continues from where we left off: exploring BoJack as a rounded, dynamic character whose transformation never feels forced. We revisit the physical paradox of a horse who rejects his own horse-ness, the moral grayness that makes him simultaneously sympathetic and frustrating, and the internal dialogue that reveals his fractured psyche. These elements of complexity set the stage for today's deeper exploration.
 
 
INTRO
While complexity makes a character interesting, depth makes them real. The creators of BoJack Horseman didn't just follow this storytelling commandment—they mastered it, creating an industry-standard icon of adult animation in the process.
In this episode, Betty and Rita break down the critical distinction between these two essential character-building tools and reveal how depth serves as the bridge between complexity and development. Think of it as the middle ground where character motivations, backstories, and emotional landscapes converge to create something truly memorable.
 
 
PART A: What Really Is "Depth" in Characters? (And What It's Not!)
The Superficial vs. The Substantial
The hosts kick things off with a thought experiment: What comes to mind when you hear someone described as "superficial" or "shallow"? Rita shares her instinctive reaction—that feeling when a character exists solely to make the protagonist look good, lacking any substance beyond their surface-level function.
Betty defines it more formally: superficial characters lack intellectual or emotional depth, focusing on appearances, material possessions, and social status rather than deeper truths. They avoid introspection, seem self-centered, and judge others based on outward characteristics rather than inner substance.
 
Complex Shallowness: The Stereotype Trap
Here's where things get interesting: a character can be complex without having depth. The hosts dissect several stereotypical archetypes that illustrate this paradox:
The Gay Best Friend in Rom-Coms: Complex by virtue of their identity, yet often reduced to shopping companions and sassy one-liners without any exploration of their inner life
The Angry Black Woman Hustler: Presented with complexity through cultural identity but lacking the "why" behind her anger and ambition
The Wise Minority Mentor: Surprisingly wise but never given a backstory that explains their wisdom
The Fiery Latina: All passion, no explanation
The Laid-Back Hippie: Always high, always chill, but never explored beyond the archetype
 
Betty and Rita take a moment to address harmful stereotypes, particularly the "Nigerian Prince" scammer trope, emphasizing that stereotypes become problematic when they're used without nuance or connection to actual human experience. The key isn't avoiding stereotypes entirely—it's using them with purpose and depth.
Simple Depth: When Less Is More
On the flip side, a character can have depth without being particularly complex. The hosts explore several examples:
Toph from Avatar: The Last Airbender: A simple character whose desire for independence masks her fear of being underestimated due to her blindness
Lorelai from Gilmore Girls: Not overtly complex, but her witty dialogue reveals deep motivations rooted in her relationship with controlling parents
Luffy and Zoro from One Piece: Simple motivations, but rich backstories that explain their drives
Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory: Robot-like in his simplicity, yet we understand his inner world
Phoebe from Friends: Simple and carefree on the surface, but given moments that reveal deeper layers
 
Defining Depth
So what exactly is character depth? Bee breaks it down:
Depth refers to the richness and nuance of a character's inner life and backstory. It's about how well the audience understands the character's motivations, feelings, and the experiences that have shaped them. Depth explores what goes on behind the scenes—behind all the traits and actions you've shown us.
Key distinction: Complexity is about what a character is (contradicting personalities, moral grayness, paradoxes). Depth is about why and how they became that way.
 
 
PART B: Utilizing Depth in Character Design - The Major Points
Betty presents research-backed strategies for developing character depth, emphasizing that these aren't just her opinions but established storytelling principles:
Understanding Character Motivations
You cannot have character depth without knowing what motivates your character. Period.
Ask yourself:
What are my character's goals, desires, and wants?
Why do they want these things?
What are their fears and values?
How do these influence their actions?
Example: A character wants to become president. Cool. But why? "Because it's cool" feels flat. There must be a deeper reason rooted in their history, values, or fears.
 
Exploring Their Inner Life
While complexity shows internal conflict (contradicting thoughts, deliberation, struggle), depth simply shows what a character is thinking before taking action. It doesn't always have to be conflicted—it just needs to be revealed.
In character-focused storytelling, show your audience things from the character's point of view. Let them see thoughts, feelings, and internal processes.
 
Giving Them a Rich Backstory
The origin of a character's wants and motivations should come from something. It doesn't need to be complex or complicated, but it must be present and convincing.
People want things for various reasons—finding these reasons is part of your character's backstory, and that adds depth.
 
Adding Relatable Flaws and Vulnerabilities
Important distinction: Flaws ≠ moral grayness.
Flaws are connected to personalities and internal negative vices (being too obsessed with facts, being overly logical)
Vulnerabilities are connected to physical, environmental, socioeconomic, or cultural disadvantages (fear of water, disability, cultural position)
The key is making these flaws and vulnerabilities relevant to the story plotline. Don't tell us your character has a honey allergy unless it impacts the narrative. Even something as trivial as an allergy can spin a compelling story if used purposefully.
Bee illustrates this with a brilliant example: A character with an allergy whose first partner ignores it, but whose second partner remembers and protects her from it—showing attentiveness and care through that small detail.
 
Giving Them Moments of Action (Not Inaction)
Nobody wants to watch passive characters who "go with the wind." Even in slice-of-life stories like Studio Ghibli films (Kiki's Delivery Service, Howl's Moving Castle), the characters are proactive—they defy odds and take action.
The hosts dive into anime examples:
Shikamaru from Naruto: Typically lazy and passive ("what a drag"), but when his mentor Asuma dies, he single-handedly takes down an Akatsuki member, transforming from background character to fan favorite
Hinata from Naruto: Extremely passive and shy, but her moment of standing up to Pain to protect Naruto gave her depth and made audiences see her differently
Show their agency. Characters should actively shape their own stories, not wait for the plot to shape them.
 
Showing Their Relationships with Others
People don't exist in a void—neither should characters. Even loner characters need interactions to elaborate on their existence. Otherwise, as Bee jokes, "I may as well just watch a rock existing beside a river."
(This leads to a hilarious tangent about Rita making a movie starring The Rock—the actor—as a literal rock, winning awards and revolutionizing cinema.)
Show how characters interact with others: their conflicts, alliances, dependencies, and how they resolve disputes. These relationships add crucial depth.
 
Adding Realism Through Behavioral Details
Every character starts from an archetype—a basic template. But you add depth through subtext and dialogue that reveals inner thoughts and feelings. Show, don't tell.
In real life, we infer what people are thinking through body language, speech patterns, and behavioral quirks:
Chewing fingers when nervous
Pacing when anxious
Shaking legs when thinking hard
Betty shares personal examples: chewing the inside of her mouth when focused (painful but subconscious), and Rita biting her nails when deep in thought.
Critical point: These behavioural ticks must be tied to your story. BoJack Horseman has countless animal gags, but many fly over viewers' heads because they're not connected to the main narrative. If they were tied to character development or plot, they'd be memorable depth-builders instead of forgettable jokes.
 
 
 
PART C: How Was Depth Added to BoJack's Character?
The hosts examine how BoJack Horseman's writers masterfully tied complexity to development, creating profound character depth.
The Pattern of Shame and Avoidance
BoJack is deeply flawed, but we understand why and how he became that way:
The Herb Kazzaz Betrayal: When BoJack's best friend Herb—the man who gave him his platform to fame—was fired from the sitcom, BoJack chose self-preservation over loyalty. But the unforgivable part wasn't the initial cowardice; it was never calling Herb afterward, never returning his calls. Why? Shame. Fear of being connected to Herb's downfall. Fear of facing his own moral failure.
The Kelsey Pattern: Years later, BoJack repeats this behavior. He convinces producer Kelsey to break into a library to film a scene for Secretariat. When only she gets fired, he does the same thing—avoids her, hides from her, pretends it didn't happen.
The Secretariat Advice
Remember the advice BoJack received from his hero, Secretariat? "Run away. Run as fast as you can. Never look back."
This single piece of advice becomes a lens through which we understand BoJack's entire pattern of behavior. Every time he faces difficulty, he runs. The depth comes from understanding that this isn't just cowardice—it's learned behavior from his childhood hero, reinforced by a household where avoiding conflict was the only way to survive.
 
The Hollyhock Moment: A Glimmer of Change
In the episode "Stupid Piece of Shit," BoJack spends the entire runtime calling himself terrible names, drowning in self-loathing. At the end, his (supposed) daughter Hollyhock asks him: "This voice in my head that tells me I'm no good, that I'll never be beautiful... it goes away, right?"
In typical BoJack fashion, we expect brutal honesty: "No, it never goes away."
But he doesn't. He looks at this scared teenager, considers his words carefully, and lies to protect her: "Of course it goes away. Are you stupid? Of course not."
For viewers who've spent seasons with BoJack, this is profound. His first instinct has always been self-protection, brutal honesty as a weapon. But here, he chooses selflessness—or perhaps guilt, or shame, or some combination. Whatever the motivation, it's a moment that foreshadows his capacity for change.
 
 
CONCLUSION
The True Test of Depth
Betty concludes with this insight: The true test of depth in a character is the audience's ability to deeply understand the character's actions and inactions, motivations and needs throughout their development and transformation.
A character has depth when the more time you spend with them, the more you understand them. Not every character achieves this—some remain superficial despite abundant screen time. But when done right, depth transforms a character from interesting to unforgettable.
Character complexity and character depth are two major elements in creating rounded characters. While you don't always need depth (minor roles, slice-of-life stories), if your goal is to create a truly rounded character, depth is non-negotiable.
 
What's Next?
In the next episode, Bee and Rita tackle the final ingredient of the rounded character recipe: Transformation and Development. How does a character evolve without losing their essence? How does BoJack serve as the ultimate case study for a life in flux? Join them as they close out this character series with insights that will change how you view character arcs forever.
 
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We'll see you on the next page. Bye!
 

SHOW NOTE
 
Have you ever wondered what kind of character you would be if your life was a fiction story and you were the main protagonist? What kind of rounded character will you make?
 
Involves Fun Exercise! 
RECAP
The journey so far: Betty and Rita have explored the anatomy of rounded characters, dissecting complexity through flaws, vulnerabilities, and consequences. They've examined how BoJack Horseman's shame-driven choices and how rare moments of selflessness reveal profound character depth. The true test? Whether audiences can deeply understand a character's actions, motivations, and transformation throughout their development.
 
INTRO
After diving deep into the ocean of character depth and fighting their way back to shore with BoJack's psyche, Betty and Rita are doing something different. This episode is dedicated to YOU—the audience. It's a "run-of-the-mill" trip down memory lane designed to remind you of your sweetest victories and help you see yourself as the rounded character you truly are.
 
PART A - What Type of Rounded Character Are You?
The Transformation Game: Betty introduces a mathematical (yes, math!) approach to analyzing your life's character arc. Through a series of questions about relocations, physical changes, life experiences, and major decisions, you'll calculate your transformation score.
The Three Character Types:
Discreet Dynamic Character (Score: 1-4): Like Luffy or Wonder Woman—you go through changes but maintain your core identity. You're the rock that influences others while staying fundamentally yourself.
Quintessential Dynamic Character (Score: 5): Like Harry Potter or Arya Stark—you experience average transformation and growth, evolving in balance with your experiences.
Unequivocal Dynamic Character (Score: 6-10): Like Daenerys Targaryen—you've undergone dramatic transformation. The person you were at the beginning is vastly different from who you are now.
The Reveal: Rita scores a 7 (unequivocal), while Betty scores a 4 (discreet). The results spark fascinating conversations about stubbornness, self-perception, and that friend from primary school who insisted Betty "hasn't changed a bit" after 10 years!
 
PART B - Why Transformation Matters in Fiction - The Parallel with Reality
The Brutal Questions: When we reach the end of our road, we face questions about impact: How much did we make a difference? What memory did we leave behind? Did we summon hurricanes of bad experiences or rainbows of positive ones?
The Universal Truth: Change is the only constant. From ancient humans living to 1,000 years to modern shifting timelines of adulthood, transformation defines the human experience. We are judged by our actions—and so are characters.
The Six Life Phases: Fetus, infant, child, adolescent, adult, elderly—with birth and death marking the spectrum. But there's no one-size-fits-all timeline, as cultural norms shift dramatically across generations.
 
PART C - Types of Character Transformation
1. Quality Transformation:
Internal: Changes in beliefs, values, personality (Example: L from Death Note)
External: Physical changes, status shifts (Example: Cinderella's rags-to-riches journey)
2. Phase Transformation:
Flat Arc: Character doesn't change but transforms others (Example: Luffy, Naruto, Aang)
Dramatic Arc: Character undergoes extreme personal change (Example: Eren from Attack on Titan)
3. Consequential Transformation:
Positive: Character becomes better (Example: Pain from Naruto)
Negative: Character degenerates (Example: Light Yagami from Death Note)
Neutral: Character experiences ups and downs that balance out (Example: Itachi from Naruto, Bojack Horseman)
 
PART D - What Drives Character Transformation?
The Five Catalysts:
Conflict: Characters must go through *gbas gbos (Nigerian slang for hardship)
Personal Revelation: Deep insights that trigger change
Confronting the Past: Facing traumas, mistakes, or forgotten truths
Environmental Change: Complete shift in surroundings (isekai, anyone?)
Pivotal Moments: Life-changing turning points (discovering powers, finding a million euros)
The Great Debate
 Would you pick up a bag containing a million euros? Betty and Rita explore the moral, spiritual, and practical implications—with hilarious tangents about Nigerian superstitions, squid games, and whether that money might turn you into a yam! (LOL) 
 
CONCLUSION
With the groundwork laid, Betty and Rita prepare to dissect BoJack Horseman's complex, messy, and neutral transformational journey in the next episode. But first, they want to know: What's YOUR transformation score?
 
OUTRO
Your Turn: Did the game reflect your journey? Are you The Rock, The Reflector, or The Butterfly? Drop a comment and share your score.
Remember: The best things are often hidden in plain sight.
 
 
 
What's Next?
In the epsiode, we'll undertake the ultimate deep dive into BoJack Horseman's character. Considering how complex and deep Bojack is a protagonist, this will be quite the dissection that only your favorite hosts like Betty and Rita could take pleasure in doing... Don't miss it!
 
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Available on YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music, and Apple Podcasts.
For more quality full unfiltered experience, explore our website, leave a comment, and let us know what you think.
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Show Notes
 
Can you measure a life in arcs? In this episode, we put BoJack Horseman—Netflix's most complicated horse—through our transformation game, tracking every growth spurt, betrayal, and rock bottom moment across six seasons. The results? Surprising. The method? Mathematical. The journey? Devastating.
 
⚠️ SPOILER WARNING:
This episode contains comprehensive spoilers for the entire BoJack Horseman series.
 
 
 
RECAP: The Transformation Game
Before we dissect BoJack's messy evolution, let's revisit the framework. In our previous episode, we introduced the transformation scoring system:
Mini arcs = 1 point (two simultaneous transformations)
Major arcs = 2 points (three or more simultaneous transformations)
Formula: (Total Arc Points ÷ Total Single Transformations) × 10
The scale reveals three character types:
Score < 5: Discrete dynamic (like Luffy from One Piece)
Score = 5: Quintessential dynamic (like Harry Potter)
Score > 5: Unequivocal dynamic (like Daenerys Targaryen)
We tested this on co-host Rita, who scored a 7—an unequivocal dynamic character whose life has been marked by constant, dramatic change. But what about BoJack?
 
 
 
INTRO: Setting the Stage
Today's mission: Apply the transformation game to BoJack Horseman himself. We're mapping his complete chronological timeline—every flashback, every pivotal moment, every consequence—from birth to the series finale.
Is BoJack actually changing, or is he just spinning his wheels in the same destructive patterns? The math will tell us.
Stick around to the end for a surprising analogy involving the Hokey Pokey song that perfectly encapsulates BoJack's journey.
 
 
 
ARC 1: The Broken Foundation (1964-1970s, Ages 6-9)
The Sugarman Curse
Before BoJack's story begins, we need to understand Beatrice Sugarman—his mother. Born in 1938 to wealth and privilege, Beatrice's childhood shattered when her beloved brother Crackerjack died in World War II. Her mother's grief spiraled into mental breakdown, culminating in a lobotomy that turned her into a "living zombie."
Before her death, Beatrice's mother left her with one haunting lesson: "Never fall in love, even if it kills you."
This curse would poison everything that followed.
BoJack's First Transformation
Born January 2, 1964, in San Francisco to Beatrice and Butterscotch Horseman, BoJack enters a loveless marriage built on obligation, not affection. Between ages 6-9, we witness his first growth spurt—not just physical, but emotional. He begins to identify his feelings and understand the toxicity of his family dynamics.
Despite enduring emotional and physical abuse, young BoJack maintains his innocence. Dressed in a blue and white sailor suit with a short mane, he's resilient and hopeful. He desperately searches for warmth, bonding with TV hero Secretariat (who later commits suicide).
In one heartbreaking moment, BoJack takes his first sip of alcohol from his passed-out parents' table, then crawls into his mother's lap. As he explains in "Free Churro," this was family—dysfunctional and drowning, but at least drowning together.
Transformation Count: 1 major arc (physical growth + environmental change to a better home + internal recognition of family dysfunction)
 
 
 
ARC 2: The Teenage Betrayal (Teen Years)
BoJack hits puberty—pimples, chubbier build, football uniform. But the real transformation is internal: he discovers his father cheating with his secretary.
To cover it up, Butterscotch manipulates BoJack into drinking, causing alcohol poisoning. This moment breaks something fundamental—BoJack either loses respect for his father or begins normalizing his disrespect for women. He gives up expecting anything from his parents.
Transformation Count: 1 mini arc (physical growth + discovery of betrayal)
 
 
 
ARC 3: The Move to LA (1986, Age 22)
BoJack leaves San Francisco for Los Angeles to pursue showbiz. He's a full-grown adult now, embodying 90s style, still maintaining his innocence and politeness. When offered alcohol, he says, "Oh no, I don't drink."
This version of BoJack is still trying to be decent.
Transformation Count: 1 mini arc (physical maturation + environmental change)
 
 
 
ARC 4: Fame and the Fall (1987-1996, Ages 23-32)
The Hollywoo Break
BoJack lands his star-making role in Horsin' Around. His orange sweater with pink apples becomes iconic. His mane thickens, his fur lightens, his eyes widen—he's the picture of 90s sitcom success.
But three simultaneous transformations occur:
Success: Fame and fortune arrive
Addiction: He starts consuming alcohol, sliding toward alcoholism
Betrayal: His friendship with Herb Kazzaz—the man who got him the role—falls apart
When the show gets canceled and Herb is fired for being gay, BoJack doesn't back him up. This betrayal haunts him for decades.
Transformation Count: 1 major arc (lifestyle change + success + friendship collapse + show cancellation)
 
 
 
ARC 5: The Long Decline (1996-2014, Ages 32-50)
Becoming the BoJack We Know
This 18-year period transforms BoJack into the character we meet in Season 1. He develops the iconic look: unbuttoned gray sports jacket, blue sweater, cyan jeans, red and white sneakers. As he approaches 50, eye bags, wrinkles, and a potbelly appear—he's becoming an "o-ssan" (middle-aged man).
Depression sets in. He can't land major roles. He meets the supporting cast who will define his life: rival Mr. Peanutbutter, agent/girlfriend Princess Carolyn, and couch-surfing Todd.
Four transformations collide: physical aging, depression, environmental change (buying his mansion), and career decline.
Transformation Count: 1 major arc (physical aging + depression + location change + fading fame)
 
 
 
ARC 6: The Book and the Secretariat Movie (2014-2015)
A Glimmer of Hope
BoJack lands a book deal with Penguin Publishing, meeting ghostwriter Diane—his rival's girlfriend and the biggest supporting character in his next chapter. He reconnects with fading co-star Sarah Lynn and attempts reconciliation with Herb (it fails).
Princess Carolyn ends their relationship. But BoJack's memoir becomes a hit, winning a Golden Globe and opening doors.
In 2015, he finally stars in Secretariat, playing his childhood hero. Success returns. He reconnects with Charlotte (his old flame) and dates Wanda (an owl who just woke from a 30-year coma).
Then BoJack makes a catastrophic decision: he breaks into a museum to film a scene, getting producer Kelsey fired and Todd thrown in prison. BoJack alone escapes consequences.
Spiraling from guilt, his relationship with Wanda ends. He drives to New Mexico to visit Charlotte, where something inappropriate happens with her 17-year-old daughter Penny. The friendship is destroyed. BoJack's guilt deepens to unbearable levels.
Transformation Count: 1 major arc (relationship gained and lost + job disaster + New Mexico incident)
 
 
 
ARC 7: The Unraveling (2016) & The Redemptive Glimmer (2017)
The Secretariat movie succeeds despite BoJack's absence (CGI replaced him). But he makes another terrible choice: sleeping with Emily, Todd's childhood friend and business partner. When Todd discovers the betrayal, he's done with BoJack.
BoJack also fires Princess Carolyn after she loses deals trying to get him the best contracts. When she needs him most, he abandons her.
Then comes the tragedy: BoJack calls Sarah Lynn for a bender. It ends with her death.
Three losses—Todd, Princess Carolyn, Sarah Lynn—should constitute a major arc. But here's the twist: BoJack doesn't actually change. He's still depressed, still shameful, still the same. The events happen, but he remains fundamentally unchanged.
Transformation Count: 0 arcs (events without transformation)
 
 
BoJack leaves LA for a year, disappearing to his mother's family house. When he returns, he meets Hollyhock—initially believed to be his daughter, later revealed as his stepsister from Butterscotch's affair.
For the first time, BoJack learns to care for someone without needing anything in return. He's terrified of hurting Hollyhock and makes conscious efforts to be better for her sake.
When Princess Carolyn forges his signature on a movie deal to save her company and confesses, BoJack surprises everyone: "Yeah, I'll do it. I'll take responsibility." No convincing needed.
This is the first time we see BoJack making multiple conscious efforts to be better.
Transformation Count: 1 mini arc (environmental change + internal growth toward goodness)
 
 
 
ARC 8: Addiction and Consequences (2018)
The movie BoJack agreed to—Philbert—becomes a success. He dates PR agent Anna Spanakopita (who eventually calls him a lost cause) and co-star Gina.
Then disaster: an on-set accident leads to pain medication. BoJack, trying to stay clean, becomes addicted. He hallucinates, blacks out, and in a horrifying moment, strangles Gina on set. She survives but is left with severe PTSD.
This is BoJack's breaking point. He realizes he needs help.
Transformation Count: 1 mini arc (addiction + realization)
 
 
 
ARC 9: Rehab, Reckoning, and Rock Bottom (2019)
The Path to Redemption
Diane encourages BoJack to check into rehab. He undergoes therapy, confronting his trauma and accepting that he's not beyond redemption. He meets Dr. Champ, a therapist and former alcoholic who relapses after drinking BoJack's concealed vodka.
After rehab, BoJack starts fresh as an acting professor, moving to a new city where Hollyhock attends university. He stops dyeing his hair—revealing gray—and changes his wardrobe to a green jacket and light blue shirt. He's shedding the Hollywood persona.
The Past Catches Up
But BoJack's past won't let him be. Reporters investigate Sarah Lynn's death, uncovering the 17 minutes BoJack waited before calling 911—time he spent creating an alibi. Dr. Champ, vengeful after losing his license, violates patient confidentiality and spills everything.
BoJack attempts damage control with a PR interview, portraying himself as a victim of addiction. It works—until a second interview forces him to confess the truth about those 17 minutes.
The fallout is total: Sarah Lynn's family sues him. His financial agent sells his house to pay the settlement. He's fired from his professorship. He breaks into his old home and attempts suicide in the pool. He survives, but is sentenced to prison.
Transformation Count: 1 major arc (environmental changes: rehab + professor job + prison; physical change: gray hair + new wardrobe; external change: reputation destroyed)
 
 
ARC 10: The Final Reckoning (2019-2020)
Prison and Boundaries
In prison, BoJack is forced to confront his actions. He's released on probation to attend Princess Carolyn's wedding, where everyone sets boundaries. Princess Carolyn won't represent him personally. Diane ends their friendship in the most subtle, devastating way.
On the rooftop in the finale "Nice While It Lasted," BoJack asks, "Wouldn't it be funny if this was the last time we spoke?"
Silence.
He understands: he's lost another friend.
The only person who remains is Mr. Peanutbutter—another version of BoJack, just happier and equally toxic in his own way.
 
 
 
The Final Verdict: What Kind of Character Is BoJack?
After tracking 30 individual transformations, 5 mini arcs, and 5 major arcs across BoJack's entire life, the math reveals:
(5 mini arcs × 1) + (5 major arcs × 2) = 15 points15 ÷ 30 transformations × 10 = 5
BoJack Horseman scores a 5: A quintessential dynamic character.
Not the unequivocal Daenerys Targaryen type we expected. He's perfectly in the middle—like Harry Potter. He changes, but he doesn't transform so dramatically that he becomes unrecognizable.
Quality: Internal and External (Balanced)
BoJack experiences both internal shifts (depression, guilt, attempts at redemption) and external changes (fame, aging, imprisonment). He has "healthy girl era" phases, but always regresses.
Phase: Dramatic (Not Flat)
BoJack doesn't change the people around him—they try to change him. His transformation is active and dramatic, focused on his own evolution rather than influencing his environment.
Consequential: Neutral
BoJack's transformation is neither wholly positive nor negative. He's gray—a regular guy who messes up, tries to do better, messes up again. By the end, he's still fundamentally BoJack: broken, flawed, seeking validation, afraid of not belonging.
Even in prison, he fears freedom because he might ruin things again. That childhood fear never left him.
 
 
 
 
CONCLUSION: The Hokey Pokey Wisdom
In the series finale, Todd takes BoJack outside Princess Carolyn's wedding. BoJack shares his fear of regressing when his prison sentence ends. Todd responds with the Hokey Pokey song.
Everyone focuses on the choreography—the hokey pokey part. But Todd points to the real message: "You turn yourself around."
No matter how low you get, no matter how many times you mess up—consciously or unconsciously—don't use your failures as an excuse to keep doing harm. Get up. Turn yourself around. Do better. Keep trying.
That's BoJack's arc. Not redemption. Not damnation. Just the endless, exhausting work of trying to be better than you were yesterday.
 
 
 
 
What's Next?
In our next episode, we're wrapping up the Rounded Character Design saga. We'll explore character development as the key process for crafting realistic, relatable characters—and how BoJack Horseman masterfully brings all these elements together.
Join us on the next page.
 
Referenced Shows: BoJack Horseman, One Piece, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, Avatar: The Legend of Korra
Listen to the full unfiltered conversation at: www.pagespodcasthq.com